The Mama Podcast

03. Claudine Gillard, Sleep consultant. No more night wakings! Tips on how to help your child sleep well

August 03, 2020 Sumayya Sarwar Episode 3
The Mama Podcast
03. Claudine Gillard, Sleep consultant. No more night wakings! Tips on how to help your child sleep well
Chapters
The Mama Podcast
03. Claudine Gillard, Sleep consultant. No more night wakings! Tips on how to help your child sleep well
Aug 03, 2020 Episode 3
Sumayya Sarwar

Claudine has well and truly 'been there'. Claudine has had her own personal experience with sleep deprivation which started her along this journey to becoming the first sleep consultant in Abu Dhabi. Claudine is passionate about helping other parents who are struggling to navigate their child's sleep and has helped over 250 families to achieve their goals in person and online. 

Claudine shares her journey with me, what led her to becoming a sleep consultant and some tips and tricks on how we can support our children to have a good nights sleep in turn allowing us parents to get that well deserved rest also. 

Find Claudine Gillard on Instagram @sweetdreamsbabysleep, Facebook and website
and mention Mama app to get your 10% discount.

We love hearing from you, contact us, email: [email protected]

Download the Mama ME app on Apple or Android, Find the links on the website
www.mymamaapp.com

Social media:
Instagram @mymamaapp




Intro music: www.bensound.com

Show Notes Transcript

Claudine has well and truly 'been there'. Claudine has had her own personal experience with sleep deprivation which started her along this journey to becoming the first sleep consultant in Abu Dhabi. Claudine is passionate about helping other parents who are struggling to navigate their child's sleep and has helped over 250 families to achieve their goals in person and online. 

Claudine shares her journey with me, what led her to becoming a sleep consultant and some tips and tricks on how we can support our children to have a good nights sleep in turn allowing us parents to get that well deserved rest also. 

Find Claudine Gillard on Instagram @sweetdreamsbabysleep, Facebook and website
and mention Mama app to get your 10% discount.

We love hearing from you, contact us, email: [email protected]

Download the Mama ME app on Apple or Android, Find the links on the website
www.mymamaapp.com

Social media:
Instagram @mymamaapp




Intro music: www.bensound.com

0:00:00.240,0:00:04.799

hi mama you're listening to the mama

podcast it's Sumayya here the co-founder


0:00:04.799,0:00:09.200

of mama ME app

mama me is the first app to exclusively


0:00:09.200,0:00:12.160

connect mothers

across the middle east connect with


0:00:12.160,0:00:15.440

like-minded mamas and create lifelong

friendships


0:00:15.440,0:00:19.439

at mama we are all about connecting

mamas to empower women


0:00:19.439,0:00:22.880

so let's join together and make this

mission a reality


0:00:22.880,0:00:26.480

today we're talking about the

all-important subject


0:00:26.480,0:00:30.480

sleep i'm joined by the incredibly

knowledgeable claudine


0:00:30.480,0:00:34.160

qualified sleep sense consultant and she

has helped


0:00:34.160,0:00:39.200

over 250 families achieve

their sleep goals i know this was a


0:00:39.200,0:00:42.719

topic that i needed support with

and so i was really excited to bring


0:00:42.719,0:00:46.960

this episode to you have a chat with me

i know this will be a super valuable one


0:00:46.960,0:00:49.920

for the listeners

thank you for inviting me i really


0:00:49.920,0:00:54.480

appreciate it

um i think your story is really


0:00:54.480,0:01:00.160

interesting and how you actually managed

to get to becoming a sleep consultant


0:01:00.160,0:01:06.320

um is a really interesting story

and i would love for you to sort of


0:01:06.320,0:01:08.880

share that with us if that's okay with

you


0:01:08.880,0:01:15.280

yeah of course no problem so um

my son was um born


0:01:15.280,0:01:21.759

in doha in 2014 and

um when i when i met my husband


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he had already had two children in his

previous marriage so


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um i honestly thought i was marrying a

parenting expert


0:01:29.040,0:01:33.360

not to say he's not parenting it's but

but i really felt like i was married


0:01:33.360,0:01:36.400

someone who knew

exactly what to expect and anticipate


0:01:36.400,0:01:40.720

and so i was pretty relaxed about

finding out what it was going to be like


0:01:40.720,0:01:44.560

once the baby was born

um i focused a lot on how i was feeling


0:01:44.560,0:01:46.799

during my pregnancy and taking care of

me but


0:01:46.799,0:01:50.640

i didn't really look ahead to when my

son was born


0:01:50.640,0:01:54.079

uh how i was going to take care of him

and and the challenges that that might


0:01:54.079,0:01:59.920

present um and i also

um was 39 when he was born so i was


0:01:59.920,0:02:04.799

fairly

um happy that i'd had a full and an


0:02:04.799,0:02:08.000

exciting life up until that point so i

was really willing to give myself


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over to being a mother and to doing

whatever the


0:02:11.840,0:02:16.640

child needed for uh needed from me

um which is all great and fine and it


0:02:16.640,0:02:20.800

kind of allows aligns

with what some people would describe as


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attachment parenting and i certainly

identified with that quite a lot in the


0:02:25.040,0:02:28.879

early years of my son's life

um so i was breastfeeding i was


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co-sleeping

i was responding i was very


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um you know aware of kind of the sensory

type of


0:02:36.319,0:02:42.720

activities that is suggested for babies

without potentially spending an awful


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lot of time on

self-care um but also without


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necessarily recognizing

the importance of something um


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fundamental to our well-being which is

sleep


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so as a result of being so responsive

it was more like the baby was deciding


0:02:59.360,0:03:02.640

what was needed

as opposed to the parent and obviously


0:03:02.640,0:03:06.239

as an adult i've got a much better

handle on what's important than a


0:03:06.239,0:03:09.120

newborn baby

um i'm not saying babies don't know what


0:03:09.120,0:03:13.280

they need but you know in terms of the

wider world babies are obviously


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not um in a place to um be clear on

all of the um things that we as human


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beings require to to live well and to

live


0:03:22.720,0:03:26.080

healthily so fast forward two and a half

years um


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my husband and i were in separate rooms

we had


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tried all kinds of things to encourage

um our son to sleep through the night


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and the reality was

that he had no um good sleep habits or


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no

uh independent sleep habits and good and


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bad is not great words to use to

describe


0:03:43.680,0:03:47.840

circumstances of course but you know

what people would describe as good is


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what i would describe as independent so

he needed someone there he needed


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someone there at nap time he needed

someone


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at bedtime he needed someone there

through the night he was still being


0:03:56.799,0:04:00.159

breastfed at two and a half

so if i was nearby it would be that if


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his dad was nearby it would be

some form of physical comfort and the


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reality is we were all exhausted

joseph was absolutely um


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under the target of sleep for his age um

and


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it could not carry on in our home for

any longer


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so um having googled

um you know sleep training or sleep


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sleep healthy sleep today

um we we decided to hire a sleep


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consultant because we wanted hands-on

help


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and we lived in abu dhabi at the time we

managed to find a lady in dubai


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who helped us with our sleep training

journey


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um and it was quite literally so

transformative


0:04:40.560,0:04:45.759

for us as a family um you know

it was like a miracle descended on our


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home um

my husband and i were back in our room


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my son was in his own room

um i mean just things like my son


0:04:53.440,0:04:56.880

out grew two cops before he ever slept

in them that's how


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little time he spent in his own bed um

and in the time between the time in


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which we embarked on

sleep training him um within a month i


0:05:06.400,0:05:10.080

was on a plane to florida to

be trained to be a sleep consultant


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because i just knew

i had to bring this experience and this


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opportunity to sleep well to other

families


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um and at the time because we lived in

abu dhabi i knew there was nobody else


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in abu dhabi offering that because we

hired our lady from


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dubai and so i knew there was a lot of

families in abu dhabi that that would


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benefit and

that needed this because i was talking


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to anybody who was

stood still for more than five seconds


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how's your translate what do you do

how'd you get them to sleep why is it


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working for you not working for me why

am i failing at this and you're


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succeeding

i you know i was analyzing and and um


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interviewing anybody who was a parent i

was with a child


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um whether they were younger or older

we'll say major is my son


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so it was you know very i was kind of

not obsessive but i was very


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um absorbed by it as a subject

and um once it had been resolved for us


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and it was so

amazing to have that experience i just


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wanted to to

as i say give that gift of sleep to


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other families

so um i got on a plane to florida that


0:06:12.639,0:06:16.160

was the last day that i breastfed my son

i had to leave the country to wean him


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off breastfeeding which

again sounds quite radical in hindsight


0:06:19.759,0:06:23.520

probably is but

i've been in a lot of mum's position and


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i know what it feels like to be

um both at a loss of how to handle


0:06:28.479,0:06:33.360

things and what to do and therefore

i'm also well placed to help them with


0:06:33.360,0:06:36.319

their journey

to get the outcome that they want and


0:06:36.319,0:06:40.639

deserve

so you actually touched on quite a few


0:06:40.639,0:06:45.360

very important points during that sort

of explanation of how you managed to get


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to sleep consulting so if i

if you i will take you back a few steps


0:06:49.599,0:06:54.400

if that's okay with you

and um ask you a few questions and maybe


0:06:54.400,0:06:59.280

um if you could sort of share

you explained that you were struggling


0:06:59.280,0:07:02.160

with sleep with your son and it was two

and a half years


0:07:02.160,0:07:07.520

and i know from

you've sort of mentioned that you've the


0:07:07.520,0:07:10.960

longest period of time you actually

managed to sleep during that two and a


0:07:10.960,0:07:15.440

half years

was five hours which is incredible to


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to think that you managed to get through

two and a half years on like


0:07:19.039,0:07:22.080

the biggest chunk of sleep was five

hours


0:07:22.080,0:07:25.120

and so you must have felt pretty

exhausted


0:07:25.120,0:07:30.160

do you remember how you felt back then

or is that sort of a distant memory now


0:07:30.160,0:07:33.520

um so my son's five and a half so it's

just over three years ago


0:07:33.520,0:07:38.400

um and although the real feeling of it

isn't


0:07:38.400,0:07:42.080

there because i sleep really well and so

does he


0:07:42.080,0:07:48.800

you know the actual um

reminders of the experience are still


0:07:48.800,0:07:53.680

quite real so

that five hours was one time only okay


0:07:53.680,0:07:57.440

that was

one night of five hours every other


0:07:57.440,0:08:00.479

prior night

it would have been every couple of hours


0:08:00.479,0:08:02.639

or every hour or every three so that was

a one


0:08:02.639,0:08:06.000

night and that's why i know that because

it was so relevant


0:08:06.000,0:08:12.240

it was like this one like yay five hours

but that also means he only ever got


0:08:12.240,0:08:16.479

five hours

and that's why it's still quite real and


0:08:16.479,0:08:19.199

raw because


0:08:19.680,0:08:22.879

you know whatever works for family is

fine there's never a problem unless


0:08:22.879,0:08:27.440

there's a problem

but now on reflection that is not


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healthy beyond the age in which a child

needs to be fed


0:08:31.199,0:08:35.120

sort of regularly in the night in other

words you know little babies obviously


0:08:35.120,0:08:39.279

need to wake up let's say every

three hours or four hours feeding but he


0:08:39.279,0:08:41.680

was not a little baby anymore you know

he was


0:08:41.680,0:08:47.279

developmentally mature enough to have

longer chunks of sleep night after night


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you know consecutive nights and he

didn't so i do recall


0:08:51.760,0:08:55.839

you know very very kind of clearly the

physical


0:08:55.839,0:08:59.519

drain it has on me and him and my

husband


0:08:59.519,0:09:04.560

um i lived in a place called alzaina in

abu dhabi which is right under the


0:09:04.560,0:09:08.080

flight path and there's an

a380 that goes over at 2 a.m every


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morning and i know i used to hear that

plane


0:09:11.120,0:09:16.800

pretty much every night so

that's pretty real still three years


0:09:16.800,0:09:22.480

later i know that

you know very much um for sure


0:09:22.480,0:09:25.839

um i remember driving down the highway

we live


0:09:25.839,0:09:29.839

so our zayn is out of the city uh raja

beaches by the airport in abu dhabi so


0:09:29.839,0:09:32.959

anyone who

knows the geography and i used to go to


0:09:32.959,0:09:36.800

a class with him in the city

and i used to drive on that particular


0:09:36.800,0:09:39.200

road and then suddenly look around and

realize


0:09:39.200,0:09:43.360

i've got 30k down the road and can't

quite remember


0:09:43.360,0:09:47.600

the starting point and where i've got to

now you know that sort of dazed


0:09:47.600,0:09:53.680

feeling um and

i remember going to a shop to buy some


0:09:53.680,0:09:57.440

new trousers

banana republic and trying on the size


0:09:57.440,0:09:59.839

and the lady saying to me these are way

too big for you


0:09:59.839,0:10:04.160

i'd lost more weight i didn't even

recognize myself because i was so


0:10:04.160,0:10:08.399

kind of a shell of myself that i

couldn't believe that she was offering


0:10:08.399,0:10:10.480

me a

you know small pair just saying thank


0:10:10.480,0:10:15.360

you that was great but you know

because i was just so depleted


0:10:15.360,0:10:18.800

um breastfeeding will see uses up a lot

of calories


0:10:18.800,0:10:24.720

um but i wasn't really taking

care of myself in other areas such that


0:10:24.720,0:10:28.959

i was

my best my best self so um


0:10:28.959,0:10:35.839

yeah i do remember it being a tough

time um obviously lucky for us


0:10:35.839,0:10:39.360

we're out the other side um but there is

one


0:10:39.360,0:10:44.160

sort of element that i do keep um as a

reminder of our journey and


0:10:44.160,0:10:50.079

on my desktop on my computer

my um


0:10:50.480,0:10:54.720

screensaver is a picture of my son when

he started nursery he's about


0:10:54.720,0:10:58.640

just over 18 months old and he sat on

this little bench


0:10:58.640,0:11:01.120

in the playground of nursery and he

looks for all the world like the


0:11:01.120,0:11:06.079

happiest little child i've ever seen

with these big black circles and lines


0:11:06.079,0:11:08.959

under his eyes

and when we heard our sleep consultant


0:11:08.959,0:11:13.120

she helped us to

work out she asked us to feel like this


0:11:13.120,0:11:16.320

sort of

graph thing of how to um how much sleep


0:11:16.320,0:11:19.279

he was having and he was having about

nine hours sleep at night and he should


0:11:19.279,0:11:22.720

have been having 12.

so my little boy who's happy who's


0:11:22.720,0:11:28.160

enjoying nurseries enjoying life

is three hours of sleep lit too little


0:11:28.160,0:11:30.480

every night night after night after

night


0:11:30.480,0:11:33.760

so the point about me keeping that

screenshot is to remind myself both of


0:11:33.760,0:11:38.000

where we've come in and what we've

achieved and to keep me to keep me


0:11:38.000,0:11:44.640

wanting to help others yeah but also to

sort of show me that even if a child's


0:11:44.640,0:11:47.760

super happy and super jolly and super

you know enjoying life doesn't


0:11:47.760,0:11:52.480

necessarily mean to say

they're as well rested as they could be


0:11:52.480,0:11:57.839

yeah sure and i think that's really um

empowering now for you because


0:11:57.839,0:12:01.040

knowing how much of a difference it's

made to your life and knowing that you


0:12:01.040,0:12:07.519

can give that to other families as well

is pretty a pretty incredible feeling


0:12:07.519,0:12:11.200

yeah that must have impacted you quite a

lot mentally


0:12:11.200,0:12:16.959

surely the that sleep deprivation and

that sort of days and the the exhaustion


0:12:16.959,0:12:19.440

that you feel because you don't get

enough sleep


0:12:19.440,0:12:23.200

as well as then having a newborn baby to

look after you you sort of mentioned


0:12:23.200,0:12:26.160

something that really

resonated really strongly with me


0:12:26.160,0:12:29.040

because you said that you were really

healthy during your pregnancy you really


0:12:29.040,0:12:31.680

focused on staying healthy and looked

after yourself


0:12:31.680,0:12:34.720

but you never looked past your pregnancy

and it's the same


0:12:34.720,0:12:38.079

i did exactly the same and maybe that's

part of the joy


0:12:38.079,0:12:43.680

of not knowing is actually part of being

able to enjoy that pregnancy


0:12:43.680,0:12:47.839

but i i had the same feeling where you

have been a newborn and this


0:12:47.839,0:12:50.959

that learning curve is so steep and any

new mom will


0:12:50.959,0:12:55.200

sort of relate to that because that

learning curve is so incredibly steep in


0:12:55.200,0:12:59.200

especially in those early months but

that coupled with the lack of sleep must


0:12:59.200,0:13:03.040

have been

pretty challenging altogether


0:13:03.040,0:13:10.639

yeah i mean we we

um were quite lucky at the very start


0:13:10.639,0:13:15.360

as in the first uh newborn phase the

first 12 weeks


0:13:15.360,0:13:19.120

i mean he was co-sleeping with us and as

in three of us in a bed


0:13:19.120,0:13:22.399

um and my husband still managed to get

up and go to work every day so you know


0:13:22.399,0:13:26.880

that part i think was

was sort of okay and you know the flush


0:13:26.880,0:13:31.040

of love and i

i was lucky i didn't really have any


0:13:31.040,0:13:35.440

baby blues or pnd

so you know i was really able to enjoy


0:13:35.440,0:13:39.360

and appreciate

him for the first few weeks


0:13:39.360,0:13:42.639

we didn't have a lot of challenges i had

my parents staying with me as well so


0:13:42.639,0:13:45.040

there were times during the day where i

could definitely


0:13:45.040,0:13:49.680

catch up on that um joseph was always

being held by someone which


0:13:49.680,0:13:54.079

is good and bad um but you know at the

time it was fine


0:13:54.079,0:13:57.839

there's two things i can say about that

though the first thing is


0:13:57.839,0:14:03.199

we went to the uk uh joseph and i to

um visit friends and family to me for me


0:14:03.199,0:14:07.760

to sort of introduce them to people

and we came back and my husband said


0:14:07.760,0:14:10.000

what happened

it's like you broke him while we went on


0:14:10.000,0:14:13.040

holiday well you went on holidays like a

different child i'd come home with


0:14:13.040,0:14:15.600

because

he had gone from sleeping quite well to


0:14:15.600,0:14:18.480

no longer sleeping

at all well and that was basically the


0:14:18.480,0:14:21.920

four-month sleep regression unbeknownst

to us at the time


0:14:21.920,0:14:24.959

the second thing was i was diagnosed

with ptsd


0:14:24.959,0:14:30.560

at about he was like 10 or 11 months old

so i'd had a pretty traumatic birth and


0:14:30.560,0:14:33.360

aft

and so the first three months of the of


0:14:33.360,0:14:36.079

his life where i was in his flushing

period


0:14:36.079,0:14:39.600

was great but then once his sleep

deteriorated


0:14:39.600,0:14:44.800

my ptsd started to become more and more

noticeable particularly to my husband


0:14:44.800,0:14:48.240

because my sleep was deteriorated of

course and


0:14:48.240,0:14:52.560

i was just really quite i mean i

mentioned about being a child of my


0:14:52.560,0:14:57.120

former self just almost zombie like

in the way that i would just do things


0:14:57.120,0:14:59.920

um

and it wasn't that i wasn't able to be


0:14:59.920,0:15:04.240

loving and giving to my son

but what i'm saying is my husband was


0:15:04.240,0:15:09.199

telling me you are not you

you are not the you that


0:15:09.199,0:15:12.800

we know and and the best version of you

and


0:15:12.800,0:15:17.279

you know what i do want parents to know

and understand is that


0:15:17.279,0:15:20.880

we don't get a badge for being sleep

deprived when i'm getting extra


0:15:20.880,0:15:25.120

gold star or something else to say you

know you've suffered there for your


0:15:25.120,0:15:28.720

better parent or or a parent that you

know


0:15:28.720,0:15:32.399

needs extra acknowledgement we all do

the best job that we can do


0:15:32.399,0:15:38.480

but we can never do the most optimal

if we sleep deprived because we


0:15:38.480,0:15:41.680

obviously

as a you know as an individual are


0:15:41.680,0:15:47.839

ourselves therefore depleted

and so consequently we're short-tempered


0:15:47.839,0:15:51.600

we don't make good choices

no we don't feel like we're able to


0:15:51.600,0:15:56.639

engage in the way that we

would like to do or we'd like to so um


0:15:56.639,0:15:59.680

you know it's it's such a fundamental

element


0:15:59.680,0:16:05.839

so i really feel like sometimes moms

get this sort of message that oh it's


0:16:05.839,0:16:08.720

very natural for children to wake up in

the night it's very normal for children


0:16:08.720,0:16:11.120

to want to be near you or it's very

normal for


0:16:11.120,0:16:15.279

you know your baby to need to feed and

it is until


0:16:15.279,0:16:18.880

you realize that it's very normal to

sleep


0:16:18.880,0:16:23.360

you know over and above everything or in

addition to everything


0:16:23.360,0:16:27.759

it's a basic human need shelter food and

sleep okay they are


0:16:27.759,0:16:31.920

part of a trigraph um put one to one

side


0:16:31.920,0:16:35.519

okay the shelter may still be there um

the food may still be there but you'll


0:16:35.519,0:16:39.920

you know operate in a

30 reduced capacity uh which is


0:16:39.920,0:16:44.880

obviously significant

so you know it does it does


0:16:44.880,0:16:48.480

it does say something if we're willing

to put that a third of our basic human


0:16:48.480,0:16:52.959

need to one side

and kind of ignore it thinking that you


0:16:52.959,0:16:56.160

know it'll all be fine

it really isn't necessarily the case at


0:16:56.160,0:16:58.880

all yeah and i agree with that because i

think


0:16:58.880,0:17:03.040

it's so important to remember that

actually being your best self means that


0:17:03.040,0:17:07.360

you're a better parent

to your child and i know that i wasn't


0:17:07.360,0:17:10.079

very good with the sort of interrupted

sleep


0:17:10.079,0:17:14.799

um and so i knew that was something that

i needed to address because i wanted to


0:17:14.799,0:17:18.000

be a better parent during the day to my

daughter because for me


0:17:18.000,0:17:22.400

staying patient was very challenging

having had very little sleep


0:17:22.400,0:17:28.960

and i i mean i would like to

i guess it is you mentioned that it is


0:17:28.960,0:17:32.320

normal in some circumstances

is that the first sort of four months


0:17:32.320,0:17:37.760

where they say the fourth trimester

is that yeah i mean you can either you


0:17:37.760,0:17:39.840

can

you can either be blessed with a very


0:17:39.840,0:17:44.880

sleepy newborn or you can be

blessed with a very not sleepy newborn


0:17:44.880,0:17:47.520

and

i know both are a blessing obviously i


0:17:47.520,0:17:52.080

remember i did a

present a sort of little workshop at


0:17:52.080,0:17:56.559

um a shop called mammy's in i'll see

more in abu dhabi i'll just give them a


0:17:56.559,0:18:01.120

small shout out because it's a it's not

a change store it's a you know locally


0:18:01.120,0:18:03.440

run

shop and um this lady came in with a


0:18:03.440,0:18:07.919

seven week old baby and she said

she's so happy she's so you know easy


0:18:07.919,0:18:11.200

going um

but she doesn't sleep and this was about


0:18:11.200,0:18:14.080

one o'clock in the afternoon and this

little girl woke up at seven o'clock


0:18:14.080,0:18:17.679

that morning and had not slept

okay now newborn babies of that age


0:18:17.679,0:18:21.520

should be asleep about every hour

and i was looking at this child thinking


0:18:21.520,0:18:26.160

wow she was happy and she was smiling

and she was the sweetest little thing


0:18:26.160,0:18:29.600

you know she wasn't screaming the house

stand and i think sometimes because


0:18:29.600,0:18:34.320

there's no obvious reaction in some

situations and if your baby's crying you


0:18:34.320,0:18:36.480

think well i've got to do something to

resolve this and


0:18:36.480,0:18:39.760

there's something going on there's

something that needs to be fixed or


0:18:39.760,0:18:43.520

helped in some way but when your baby

isn't


0:18:43.520,0:18:48.799

maybe you're not seeing that there is um

something going on there shouldn't be of


0:18:48.799,0:18:51.120

course particularly if you're a new

parent


0:18:51.120,0:18:56.480

or your busy parent you know this is

this is part and parcel of life isn't it


0:18:56.480,0:19:00.640

you know we get sort of dragged into

being and doing other things this was


0:19:00.640,0:19:03.039

also a working mom she was a teacher so

she


0:19:03.039,0:19:09.360

it was a very um busy

uh and sort of reasonably stressful job


0:19:09.360,0:19:14.960

um the point being that

even if we're sleep deprived it may not


0:19:14.960,0:19:18.160

be there outwardly and it wasn't with

this little baby but


0:19:18.160,0:19:20.960

it still doesn't mean to say it's

something that she didn't need she


0:19:20.960,0:19:24.559

definitely didn't need it

he just wasn't you know you know in the


0:19:24.559,0:19:30.240

mum's face as it were

um and you know we


0:19:30.240,0:19:34.400

we can operate at less than perfect

capacity


0:19:34.400,0:19:38.400

but still operate you know that that's

the reality it becomes a new normal


0:19:38.400,0:19:42.320

i had created a new normal for myself my

son had a normal he didn't know any


0:19:42.320,0:19:46.000

different obviously

um but like you say about patience you


0:19:46.000,0:19:48.240

know was i as patient as i could be was

like


0:19:48.240,0:19:52.480

you know being as as enthusiastic about

doing


0:19:52.480,0:19:56.080

certain things with him as i could be um

and for me


0:19:56.080,0:19:59.840

you know just as a personal experience

because we didn't sleep for two and a


0:19:59.840,0:20:03.840

half years that's why

i'm a mum of only one child now that


0:20:03.840,0:20:06.080

also might seem quite radical to a lot

of people


0:20:06.080,0:20:11.200

but i was 39 i was always going to be

um you know on the cusp of maybe would


0:20:11.200,0:20:15.520

it be time to fit another child in

but more importantly there was no way i


0:20:15.520,0:20:19.280

was going to go

um ahead and get pregnant and be sleep


0:20:19.280,0:20:22.320

deprived

deal with a toddler and have a baby and


0:20:22.320,0:20:25.440

be sleep deprived you know i just

couldn't even imagine


0:20:25.440,0:20:29.760

taking that on um and so by the time we

sleep trained joseph


0:20:29.760,0:20:32.880

and um came out the other side i mean

it's not like


0:20:32.880,0:20:36.480

a week after we sleep trending we're

like okay let's go again


0:20:36.480,0:20:41.360

you know by the time it all sets down

you know basically it was too late so


0:20:41.360,0:20:46.000

for me you know you're i'm never going

to get that opportunity back it's never


0:20:46.000,0:20:48.559

going to be a position

i'm going to be in again want to think


0:20:48.559,0:20:52.240

oh you know we've now got time to i'm 45

now so


0:20:52.240,0:20:56.559

you know it will it is a living regret

to have not


0:20:56.559,0:20:59.919

addressed our circumstances sooner

knowing that


0:20:59.919,0:21:03.120

maybe i would have been being mum to

more than one child now


0:21:03.120,0:21:07.120

but being able to gift that back to

another mother


0:21:07.120,0:21:10.880

and hopefully allow some moms to realize

that it's


0:21:10.880,0:21:16.080

it's okay to notice that sleep is

is something that should be allowed as a


0:21:16.080,0:21:22.080

mom i think like you say

sometimes in society we talk about how


0:21:22.080,0:21:25.360

we are the sort of we're giving up so

much and that's


0:21:25.360,0:21:29.840

something that's commended i guess right

and i think it's okay to say like look


0:21:29.840,0:21:32.960

sleep

is needed for you and your baby and


0:21:32.960,0:21:37.360

actually it's something that we can

we can all strive towards and i think


0:21:37.360,0:21:40.720

this just brings me

i want to go back a few steps in a


0:21:40.720,0:21:44.720

second but this just brings me back

to just mentioning here that sleep


0:21:44.720,0:21:51.120

training doesn't necessarily mean

cry out yeah so there's a lot of


0:21:51.120,0:21:54.960

i think training i think is bit of a

taboo subject in certain circles or in


0:21:54.960,0:22:00.960

certain groups or forums or

you know um cultures even there's a lot


0:22:00.960,0:22:04.000

of

controversy as well as anything else and


0:22:04.000,0:22:09.440

you know parenting

is an emotive subject and people have


0:22:09.440,0:22:14.880

got a lot of opinions okay

i don't have any agenda whatsoever that


0:22:14.880,0:22:17.760

i have no interest

in trying to tell people that they


0:22:17.760,0:22:19.679

should do something if they're not

interested in


0:22:19.679,0:22:23.039

you know making that change whatever's

not a problem in your home


0:22:23.039,0:22:26.880

is not a problem in your home okay it's

only when it is a problem that


0:22:26.880,0:22:30.960

you the consideration of hiring a sleep

consultant should be there


0:22:30.960,0:22:37.679

but it is not necessarily that

there's a um um


0:22:37.679,0:22:44.240

a need for the baby to cry okay children

will get upset if um


0:22:44.240,0:22:49.840

they're tired and um they

have something difficult to deal with


0:22:49.840,0:22:52.799

okay

and making a change in the life of any


0:22:52.799,0:22:55.919

human being can often be perceived by

that


0:22:55.919,0:22:59.840

that human being is difficult um the

reality is cry


0:22:59.840,0:23:06.720

out which is also probably

one of the most if not the most


0:23:06.720,0:23:09.760

well used method of sleep training if

you can call it


0:23:09.760,0:23:13.360

training is basically when you put your

child to bed and you leave the room and


0:23:13.360,0:23:16.559

you don't go back

yeah okay there's no returning to


0:23:16.559,0:23:20.720

comfort or anything

of any every contact nature until the


0:23:20.720,0:23:23.760

next morning

okay now to a lot of people that might


0:23:23.760,0:23:29.200

sound quite radical

but the other end of the spectrum is


0:23:29.200,0:23:35.440

pre pre um internet pre-social media

pre google probably most families will


0:23:35.440,0:23:40.320

cry out families

or a version of you know i have i'm fli


0:23:40.320,0:23:42.720

i'd say i'm 45 so i have a lot of

friends


0:23:42.720,0:23:45.919

from childhood who had their babies in

their 20s


0:23:45.919,0:23:50.720

and believe me when i say those are

working mothers who had


0:23:50.720,0:23:54.960

husband a home to run um food to put on

the table laundry to do they didn't have


0:23:54.960,0:23:57.600

helpers we're

talking about uk based people they don't


0:23:57.600,0:24:00.240

have nannies

some of them don't even have families


0:24:00.240,0:24:03.440

living nearby to help them

when their babies were put to bed at


0:24:03.440,0:24:07.200

night they were put to bed upstairs

they went downstairs they had to get on


0:24:07.200,0:24:09.679

with the chores you know spend have a

relationship


0:24:09.679,0:24:12.799

do whatever they needed to they weren't

sat inside their children's door on the


0:24:12.799,0:24:17.360

landing

or holding their hand or you know doing


0:24:17.360,0:24:20.559

all the extra things that we're doing

now i'm not saying that


0:24:20.559,0:24:23.600

they were you know purists quite out in

terms of


0:24:23.600,0:24:27.520

didn't go back in the room for 12 hours

but they they could only respond based


0:24:27.520,0:24:32.240

on

um their available time in that that


0:24:32.240,0:24:36.000

at that point in their life and those

children are all fine


0:24:36.000,0:24:39.840

okay there is nothing wrong with those

children they're not emotionally scarred


0:24:39.840,0:24:43.039

first they don't remember it by the way

children don't remember it


0:24:43.039,0:24:45.279

the parents aren't particularly

emotionally scarred because i've spoken


0:24:45.279,0:24:48.480

to them about this at length

but you know it was all that was being


0:24:48.480,0:24:52.640

done then we

they didn't have any influential


0:24:52.640,0:24:55.840

elements so

since we've got a world in which


0:24:55.840,0:24:59.600

technology is

right there in front of us and there is


0:24:59.600,0:25:04.000

something to back up

any opinion or any viewpoint or any


0:25:04.000,0:25:08.480

um style that you like if you if you

google attachment parenting of course


0:25:08.480,0:25:10.960

there's pros and cons but

if you want the pros you'll just seek


0:25:10.960,0:25:14.400

out the pros which is what i did

you know if you only want to find


0:25:14.400,0:25:19.200

something to back up flat earth

then it's going to be there okay so what


0:25:19.200,0:25:24.080

what needs to be born in mind is there

is a way that suits you


0:25:24.080,0:25:28.559

you just need to sleep that way out um

but crying is not harmful to babies


0:25:28.559,0:25:32.320

babies

are born to cry essentially


0:25:32.320,0:25:36.640

um they do cry uh on average babies cry

three hours a day


0:25:36.640,0:25:42.080

you know that's a factual average um

colic babies cry three hours a day


0:25:42.080,0:25:45.760

three days a week for three weeks okay

so


0:25:45.760,0:25:49.520

if the crying was so harmful there will

be very very um


0:25:49.520,0:25:53.679

you know doctors concerned about colic

babies well they're concerned but


0:25:53.679,0:25:55.840

they're not

concerned about the crying it's not the


0:25:55.840,0:25:58.640

crying that concerns them it's the why

have they got colic


0:25:58.640,0:26:04.640

you know as an issue and since colic

is not actually definable apart from the


0:26:04.640,0:26:06.960

amount of crying

you know what they what doctors don't


0:26:06.960,0:26:11.039

know is what is colic um

they're not spending a lot of time


0:26:11.039,0:26:13.919

worrying about the actual calling about

the crying they're actually trying to


0:26:13.919,0:26:16.720

figure out what's causing the crimes the

crime is like the output


0:26:16.720,0:26:21.360

it's not really the issue so i don't

want people to think that all sleep


0:26:21.360,0:26:25.600

training is about crying um

but what i do want people to recognize


0:26:25.600,0:26:28.640

and realize is that crying out is just

one way


0:26:28.640,0:26:34.960

and it's really um

moved away from popularity since we've


0:26:34.960,0:26:40.400

had you know as i say the access of

technology um readily available to us


0:26:40.400,0:26:43.840

nothing wrong with it if that's what

people want to do it's not what i use


0:26:43.840,0:26:47.200

because my view is if you want quiet out

you don't need a sleep consultant you


0:26:47.200,0:26:51.440

just need to shut the door

and walk away however


0:26:51.440,0:26:55.039

what i also say to parents is you know

try to recognize that crying is very


0:26:55.039,0:26:58.080

normal for babies and they have no

problem doing it we don't love to hear


0:26:58.080,0:27:00.559

it

yeah maybe we have no problem doing it i


0:27:00.559,0:27:02.720

guess it's just their way of

communication right


0:27:02.720,0:27:06.080

until they can actually vocalize what

they're thinking


0:27:06.080,0:27:09.919

which is quite far into it's what two

and a half


0:27:09.919,0:27:13.600

three years old by they can when they

can actually truly communicate


0:27:13.600,0:27:17.520

um so it's just their way of

communication and i think when you


0:27:17.520,0:27:20.880

i think it took me a while to come to

terms with that because i think as a


0:27:20.880,0:27:24.320

mother it really sort of

as soon as you hear your child crying


0:27:24.320,0:27:27.200

you just want to do something to stop

them from crying


0:27:27.200,0:27:30.960

um yeah but it's it's a survival

instinct isn't it is to protect your


0:27:30.960,0:27:35.360

baby but we're no longer in that kind of

environment where we need to protect


0:27:35.360,0:27:38.559

them instantly

or at least respond to every cry because


0:27:38.559,0:27:42.559

it's just their way of communication

exactly i mean look there's a number of


0:27:42.559,0:27:45.840

elements if you're breastfeeding and

your baby's really new it's quite a


0:27:45.840,0:27:49.120

hormonal thing you know if you cries

if your baby cries so your breast milk


0:27:49.120,0:27:52.799

can you know come in okay i remember i

was in a car with a friend


0:27:52.799,0:27:55.840

and our babies were born within two

weeks of each other my baby cried and


0:27:55.840,0:27:59.760

her milk came in

i mean it was literally primeval in


0:27:59.760,0:28:02.720

sense of

the actual reactions in your body but of


0:28:02.720,0:28:06.080

course when your milk comes

there's a hormonal change in you and so


0:28:06.080,0:28:10.159

you feel it so you think

yeah i must react that is essentially a


0:28:10.159,0:28:12.159

human nature element like you say that

the


0:28:12.159,0:28:16.559

survival part well we're no longer

living in caves so it doesn't really


0:28:16.559,0:28:19.200

apply

as you say it's communication before


0:28:19.200,0:28:22.640

they can speak it's still

used beyond the time in which they can


0:28:22.640,0:28:24.640

speak as their main method of

communication


0:28:24.640,0:28:27.840

because of course it's familiar it's

comfortable


0:28:27.840,0:28:32.159

it's natural it's never about the crying

though it's about


0:28:32.159,0:28:35.440

um something else and the crying is like

the output


0:28:35.440,0:28:40.640

the thing i think that is the problem

for us now as parents is one society you


0:28:40.640,0:28:43.760

hear a crying baby you think well why

isn't that parent


0:28:43.760,0:28:47.279

making that not you know making that

stop making them


0:28:47.279,0:28:50.880

do something about that and the second

thing as adults


0:28:50.880,0:28:55.200

we only cry usually if there's something

very seriously wrong


0:28:55.200,0:28:58.559

and often when we're sad babies don't

cry when they're sad


0:28:58.559,0:29:01.919

babies aren't really sad so if you think

about it


0:29:01.919,0:29:05.600

um if my son will cry and tell me he's

happy at the same time


0:29:05.600,0:29:09.679

he's not sad therefore he's crying so

i'm not my job is not to


0:29:09.679,0:29:13.679

therefore make him happy or worry about

the fact he's sad


0:29:13.679,0:29:17.200

but because as adults we typically cry

when we're sad


0:29:17.200,0:29:21.600

we relate crying to sadness so we think

oh my gosh my baby sad i need to do


0:29:21.600,0:29:25.679

something to make them not sad

right likelihood is they're not sad


0:29:25.679,0:29:30.080

though it's not about sadness and that's

very challenging to wrap your head


0:29:30.080,0:29:34.240

around like you said smile you know it

does take a while to reconcile


0:29:34.240,0:29:38.000

um it's it's about figuring out why are

they crying


0:29:38.000,0:29:44.159

and what can i do to help them with that

that's what sleep training identifies


0:29:44.159,0:29:47.679

with parents okay let's

let's figure out what this crying is


0:29:47.679,0:29:51.679

about

and then deal with that not to be too


0:29:51.679,0:29:55.600

bogged down in the crying

the other thing to say about crying and


0:29:55.600,0:29:58.240

you know

i'm quite passionate about this because


0:29:58.240,0:30:03.440

babies do need to cry often

um because crying forms a number of


0:30:03.440,0:30:07.840

different types of

um serves a number of different types of


0:30:07.840,0:30:10.000

elements for babies apart from

communication


0:30:10.000,0:30:15.120

it's um also there are toxins in tears

so it's like an offloading of toxins


0:30:15.120,0:30:19.360

it's also pent-up frustration or pent-up

emotion so when you hear about terrible


0:30:19.360,0:30:23.760

twos just as an example

terrible twos i think two-year-olds get


0:30:23.760,0:30:27.679

a really bad rap because all you hear is

oh they had a meltdown here or they lost


0:30:27.679,0:30:32.399

their mind over a blue cup or all their

my child just can't um you know do


0:30:32.399,0:30:35.200

anything without throwing themselves on

the floor and having a tantrum


0:30:35.200,0:30:38.960

the thing about when they turn to is

they start to realize


0:30:38.960,0:30:42.320

the hierarchy of the world and they

start to become aware


0:30:42.320,0:30:48.640

of their position but they also

um have to sort of get to an age where


0:30:48.640,0:30:51.919

they are taking on

more and the problem is is that they may


0:30:51.919,0:30:54.000

have

a number of different experiences


0:30:54.000,0:30:57.600

throughout the day that they

it's new to them and that they have to


0:30:57.600,0:31:01.200

manage so when they

lose their mind because you gave them


0:31:01.200,0:31:04.240

the blue cup they haven't lost their

mind over the blue cup they've had


0:31:04.240,0:31:08.000

five previous experiences particularly

if they're in daycare or nursery


0:31:08.000,0:31:11.120

you know they were playing with a toy

quite hard please someone took it away


0:31:11.120,0:31:14.080

they said they spoke to the helper and

said you know i'm upset and help said


0:31:14.080,0:31:18.159

don't worry here's another toy what

you've invalidated their feelings you


0:31:18.159,0:31:22.640

gave them a sandwich

they wanted a cracker you know but they


0:31:22.640,0:31:24.559

can't

communicate they can't tell you what


0:31:24.559,0:31:27.039

they want to eat you know they were

being fed


0:31:27.039,0:31:29.760

all the time through our choice they

wanted to wear a red t-shirt you gave


0:31:29.760,0:31:32.480

them a blue

by the time they've got to you know


0:31:32.480,0:31:35.200

having a blue cup when they needed a

green card


0:31:35.200,0:31:39.600

it isn't just that it's all the things

that went before them and so for them


0:31:39.600,0:31:43.039

they need to let it out you'll see

toddlers


0:31:43.039,0:31:47.440

cry and lose their mind and 10 minutes

later be happy and you know cheerful and


0:31:47.440,0:31:51.039

running around the places so that never

happened that's an offloading of the


0:31:51.039,0:31:55.760

toxins of all of the pressure

of the previous experiences and it's


0:31:55.760,0:31:59.440

terrible too because

they're experiencing the world at two in


0:31:59.440,0:32:02.240

a different way

to previously then they get through it


0:32:02.240,0:32:05.279

and they move on to the next

developmental stage which


0:32:05.279,0:32:09.440

obviously creates its own challenges but

for them crying is a way


0:32:09.440,0:32:14.880

to release that pressure valve and then

go about their day it is not i mean we


0:32:14.880,0:32:17.840

don't want our child breaking down in

the middle of careful obviously but


0:32:17.840,0:32:21.360

apart from that they need to work

through it otherwise it's just going to


0:32:21.360,0:32:25.519

come rage and you know that's that's not

better


0:32:25.519,0:32:30.320

sure and i guess then the crying when

they do when you are adjusting


0:32:30.320,0:32:35.120

their routine is similar because they

are just communicating that there's a


0:32:35.120,0:32:39.600

change

and they're trying to understand the


0:32:39.600,0:32:45.279

change and maybe

new neural pathways that need to be


0:32:45.279,0:32:49.279

formed

exactly i mean this the way i explain it


0:32:49.279,0:32:52.640

to parents right now

in the last three months especially uae


0:32:52.640,0:32:56.640

parents in the last three months

somebody has decided that we're not


0:32:56.640,0:33:00.240

allowed to leave our house

okay now on the day that that happened i


0:33:00.240,0:33:03.039

believe me when i say i was not the

happiest person i've ever been


0:33:03.039,0:33:06.159

okay because as soon as someone tells me

that i can't do something


0:33:06.159,0:33:09.519

i absolutely want to do the thing that

they could tell me i cannot do


0:33:09.519,0:33:12.559

that's my personality but it's not

really that unusual


0:33:12.559,0:33:16.080

for human beings we do not like change

we


0:33:16.080,0:33:20.559

are predisposed to resist change even if

change is good for us


0:33:20.559,0:33:24.320

bear in mind that they were making that

change for the betterment of or for the


0:33:24.320,0:33:28.080

protection of us okay

so you cannot leave your house because


0:33:28.080,0:33:31.600

there's a virus and you might get sick

wow i really want to leave my house well


0:33:31.600,0:33:34.559

i mean you said not even logical is it

doesn't make any sense to


0:33:34.559,0:33:39.200

want to do that however so protesting

change so i had like a week where i was


0:33:39.200,0:33:42.720

eating chocolate every night and

you know is it one o'clock yeah and all


0:33:42.720,0:33:47.600

that of that kind of thing

and then i was like okay i see where


0:33:47.600,0:33:50.399

this is gone you know

lucky me i live in the uae they're


0:33:50.399,0:33:53.120

protecting us you know they're very

thoughtful about it


0:33:53.120,0:33:58.080

etc came out the other side pretty happy

with the outcome


0:33:58.080,0:34:02.960

went through that period of total

quarantine the day they decided to


0:34:02.960,0:34:06.640

uh you know relax the quarantine i

couldn't have been happier okay


0:34:06.640,0:34:10.159

it's the same for children i've decided

that you're going to fall asleep in a


0:34:10.159,0:34:12.720

different way

and i'm not going to consult with you


0:34:12.720,0:34:14.960

about it and i'm not going to discuss it

with you


0:34:14.960,0:34:18.960

and i am not going to you know even have

your opinion on it i'm just going to do


0:34:18.960,0:34:21.520

it to you

and guess what you're gonna put up with


0:34:21.520,0:34:26.639

it obviously if you're

four months six months two years old six


0:34:26.639,0:34:29.119

years old

for you that's a change that's imposed


0:34:29.119,0:34:32.800

upon you therefore it's quite natural to

push it back against that change


0:34:32.800,0:34:38.560

and children as a natural reaction to

things will cry okay but it's measured


0:34:38.560,0:34:42.159

it's it's

it i am tired i just want to go to sleep


0:34:42.159,0:34:44.399

and today you're going to do something

different than you've done


0:34:44.399,0:34:51.359

100 of my life why

it's about navigating what


0:34:51.359,0:34:54.399

is the issue in of the moment helping

them


0:34:54.399,0:35:00.160

in to manage that feeling

knowing that it's not the journey it's


0:35:00.160,0:35:04.160

the outcome

that is the important part and children


0:35:04.160,0:35:09.280

are very adaptable

precisely i mean honestly it's it's


0:35:09.280,0:35:12.000

incredible i mean people will say to me

oh i'm really worried about getting rid


0:35:12.000,0:35:15.839

of the dummy or pacifier

and i say believe me when i say that is


0:35:15.839,0:35:18.960

an item that they could not care less

about once they sleep train


0:35:18.960,0:35:24.079

and literally i mean within 24 hours it

could it could be as quick as that


0:35:24.079,0:35:28.640

that they've gone from um

thinking that that is the most important


0:35:28.640,0:35:31.839

thing on the planet to not needing it

whatsoever


0:35:31.839,0:35:36.720

children are adaptable and children take

information


0:35:36.720,0:35:40.560

um based on the what their parents

deliver to them


0:35:40.560,0:35:45.119

so if you deliver this is your new bed

and um it's really super comfortable and


0:35:45.119,0:35:47.760

you're going to have a lovely

sleep in it that will be fine if you


0:35:47.760,0:35:50.240

deliver my goodness are you going to be

okay


0:35:50.240,0:35:52.720

we're you're not going to sleep very

well this bed tonight i wonder if i


0:35:52.720,0:35:55.280

should do something to compensate for

the fact that i am worried that you're


0:35:55.280,0:35:57.599

not going to sleep for

guess what they're not going to sleep


0:35:57.599,0:36:00.880

very well because they've seen their

anxiety


0:36:00.880,0:36:05.359

in you about this bed and their

immediate reaction is mummy's not very


0:36:05.359,0:36:07.440

happy

mommy's worried therefore i should be


0:36:07.440,0:36:11.200

worried mommy's you know concerned

therefore i should be in concern


0:36:11.200,0:36:15.440

they read body language better than in

any other age


0:36:15.440,0:36:18.480

because if they're not verbal they have

to communicate in other ways


0:36:18.480,0:36:21.760

so they know i hate i say it to people

they can smell it


0:36:21.760,0:36:26.079

they know there's no doubt if you're

common blacks they know


0:36:26.079,0:36:30.320

if you're not calm and relaxed they know

so it's really that you have to be


0:36:30.320,0:36:34.079

fully as a parent as a mother you have

to be really sort of


0:36:34.079,0:36:39.440

fully invested in making the change for

it to be a successful outcome


0:36:39.440,0:36:44.640

well yes and i mean yes i know what i

say to parents when they i have initial


0:36:44.640,0:36:49.359

call with everybody who

contacts me and about should i be sleep


0:36:49.359,0:36:51.280

training my child or i want to sleep

train or


0:36:51.280,0:36:55.599

however they sort of um introduction

that they make to me is


0:36:55.599,0:36:59.040

about that what's going on and what i

say to them in that course


0:36:59.040,0:37:02.960

in the three years i've been doing this

and the 250 children i've worked with


0:37:02.960,0:37:07.440

i know exactly what based on your

child's age is they need and i know how


0:37:07.440,0:37:10.720

to get you there

okay and i can give you information


0:37:10.720,0:37:14.960

advice support

experience i can you know really hold


0:37:14.960,0:37:18.240

your hand through the process

and make it work for you but i cannot


0:37:18.240,0:37:21.040

give you the commitment

because i am not going around the uae


0:37:21.040,0:37:24.800

putting babies to bed no i am

imparting advice and guidance and


0:37:24.800,0:37:28.240

knowledge on parents and then asking

them to follow through on that


0:37:28.240,0:37:33.040

with my support with my input but

the reality is that nine o'clock i turn


0:37:33.040,0:37:35.760

my phone off and so if their child wakes

up between 9 00


0:37:35.760,0:37:41.760

p.m and 8 a.m they are dealing with

that even though i've advised them yeah


0:37:41.760,0:37:45.359

so they decide

at 2am to not do what i've said and to


0:37:45.359,0:37:47.760

do

whatever they've previously done which


0:37:47.760,0:37:50.480

is not for me to tell them that they

shouldn't


0:37:50.480,0:37:54.160

what i know there is their commitment

for change is quite low


0:37:54.160,0:37:58.160

and it's not the time for them to embark

upon this


0:37:58.160,0:38:02.480

what that means is that you know either

they're not ready


0:38:02.480,0:38:05.680

or they weren't expecting it to be the

way it is


0:38:05.680,0:38:09.839

now as long as they are committed to

making the change and seeing it through


0:38:09.839,0:38:14.400

we can carry on on the next night and

the next night but genuinely


0:38:14.400,0:38:17.760

for example just to keep it really

simple if you've breastfed your child to


0:38:17.760,0:38:20.079

bed

every night for the last 12 months and i


0:38:20.079,0:38:22.160

say to you tonight you're not going to

do that


0:38:22.160,0:38:27.359

and you do it normally indicates that

actually you're probably not ready to


0:38:27.359,0:38:29.520

stop breastfeeding your child throughout

the night


0:38:29.520,0:38:32.320

and that's totally fine you know i

wasn't ready until my summer's two and a


0:38:32.320,0:38:35.599

half

but what i'm saying is that i can't make


0:38:35.599,0:38:38.880

you be committed so as long as you're

committed i can motivate you i can


0:38:38.880,0:38:43.359

support you i can help you i can

really reassure you as i say throughout


0:38:43.359,0:38:46.640

this journey

but the commitment element as in the


0:38:46.640,0:38:49.839

starting point the conscious decision

that you want your child to fall asleep


0:38:49.839,0:38:52.480

without breastfeeding

has to come from you it's not for me to


0:38:52.480,0:38:56.800

persuade you you should

um there's many statistics out there


0:38:56.800,0:39:00.079

that can tell you that and that's

you know whether or not you've decided


0:39:00.079,0:39:03.359

that is totally you know totally your

decision


0:39:03.359,0:39:06.960

so that um you mentioned something

really critical there


0:39:06.960,0:39:10.400

breastfeeding to sleep which is one of

the


0:39:10.400,0:39:14.960

one of the things if you are sort of

working to sleep training your child


0:39:14.960,0:39:20.079

is to move the feeding to an earlier

time in the evening


0:39:20.079,0:39:26.400

so could we just touch on um

some needs or some tips um for bedtime


0:39:26.400,0:39:29.280

that really help

get your child ready for sleep because


0:39:29.280,0:39:32.320

we all know how important it is for a

child to sleep i think


0:39:32.320,0:39:36.960

by this point i i think all parents will

know that sleep is important to a child


0:39:36.960,0:39:41.280

for their developmental sort of

well-being and just the emotional


0:39:41.280,0:39:44.079

well-being as

well because they need good sleep as


0:39:44.079,0:39:47.359

well to be able to regulate their

feelings emotions as well


0:39:47.359,0:39:53.680

and so i think we're we're all sort of

sold on that but sometimes it's this


0:39:53.680,0:39:57.680

routine can have a big impact on how

your child actually falls asleep and how


0:39:57.680,0:39:59.680

well

they are able to fall asleep and then


0:39:59.680,0:40:04.480

they're getting the timing right as well

and i know the timing obviously must be


0:40:04.480,0:40:09.119

is different for every parent and

every sort of family um and that will


0:40:09.119,0:40:12.640

depend on the age of the child as well

but i think the routine pretty much is


0:40:12.640,0:40:15.839

similar

through the sort of the age of the child


0:40:15.839,0:40:19.520

is that right

yeah i mean the thing that we you want


0:40:19.520,0:40:22.640

to um

be mindful of with regards to what a


0:40:22.640,0:40:27.119

routine is a routine

is a signpost or a signal or an


0:40:27.119,0:40:30.800

indicator to a child

that the next thing that's going to


0:40:30.800,0:40:32.800

happen to them is they need to wind down

and go


0:40:32.800,0:40:36.000

get ready to go to sleep and by winding

i mean relax


0:40:36.000,0:40:39.599

so studies have proven that the human

brain needs to be relaxed in order to


0:40:39.599,0:40:42.079

fall asleep

so as adults if we've got lots of things


0:40:42.079,0:40:44.960

running through our mind you know what

we're going to do tomorrow how today


0:40:44.960,0:40:47.440

when have we got bills to pay and all

the kinds of


0:40:47.440,0:40:50.800

elements that can take over when we're

lying in the dark


0:40:50.800,0:40:53.520

we're not going to fall asleep until

we've dealt with that you know until


0:40:53.520,0:40:56.720

we've

put that to one side the little babies


0:40:56.720,0:40:59.760

obviously they don't

or oh you know children i'm talking


0:40:59.760,0:41:03.680

about a range of children

aged from let's say 0 to 10 years old


0:41:03.680,0:41:07.680

they don't obviously have those concerns

but somewhere in amongst those age


0:41:07.680,0:41:10.560

ranges there's different types of

anxieties let's say


0:41:10.560,0:41:14.560

that can prevent sleep yeah depending on

the age will be a different


0:41:14.560,0:41:18.640

different type of concern that's going

on in their mind


0:41:18.640,0:41:21.920

if you've got a routine what you're

doing is you're signposting to the child


0:41:21.920,0:41:25.839

okay

along this path then one of the things


0:41:25.839,0:41:27.760

that's going to happen is you're going

to be put into bed and


0:41:27.760,0:41:31.200

that's where sleep happens when you've

got a child let's say


0:41:31.200,0:41:34.640

between zero and five years old in other

words newborn and five years old


0:41:34.640,0:41:38.000

the ability to explain to them what

sleep really means


0:41:38.000,0:41:44.160

is pretty much nil as in

when i talk to you about sleep i'm not


0:41:44.160,0:41:46.160

gonna

assume but i'm gonna just give you a


0:41:46.160,0:41:51.200

best guess what you probably think is

lay down in bed shut eyes be still


0:41:51.200,0:41:55.599

it's dark it happens okay that's pretty

much what happens to an adult


0:41:55.599,0:41:59.040

children don't even know they need to

shut their eyes


0:41:59.040,0:42:04.640

all children who are young

will lay there with their eyes open


0:42:04.640,0:42:08.000

until just before they fall asleep

they don't even know they have to shut


0:42:08.000,0:42:10.720

their eyes in order to go to sleep so

fundamentally


0:42:10.720,0:42:14.640

children don't understand sleep okay so

if you if you think of it in those terms


0:42:14.640,0:42:21.119

they are not you know on a

chips are dying let's say so the routine


0:42:21.119,0:42:26.880

helps them to start to recognize

i have a bath i get dressed you know


0:42:26.880,0:42:30.880

somebody reads me a story

we have a cuddle i go into bed that gets


0:42:30.880,0:42:34.720

repeated and it happens at time

time when i'm tired and then the next


0:42:34.720,0:42:38.880

thing is

is sleep so in terms of routine you


0:42:38.880,0:42:43.680

cannot underestimate the value the

importance the


0:42:43.680,0:42:47.760

you know element that will support your

child into learning that


0:42:47.760,0:42:54.640

that winding down and relaxing and and

um sleep coming next is the


0:42:54.640,0:42:58.800

the stage of that the next stage of that

um so routines


0:42:58.800,0:43:02.160

dark rooms please don't underestimate

the power of


0:43:02.160,0:43:05.599

a crack of daylight coming in through

the tiny little bit of curtain


0:43:05.599,0:43:11.520

um i since covet

i um work virtually prior to covered i


0:43:11.520,0:43:14.560

would go to see people at home and when

i see them at home i'd say okay let's


0:43:14.560,0:43:18.400

shut the curtains i'd be there during

the day usually not always


0:43:18.400,0:43:23.359

okay um those are not blackout cutters

there is too much light coming in and


0:43:23.359,0:43:28.800

it's really easy to underestimate

the power of that so dark room cool room


0:43:28.800,0:43:32.160

again a lot of parents get very alarmed

when i tell them


0:43:32.160,0:43:38.000

that studies have shown that the optimal

sleeping temperature for human beings


0:43:38.000,0:43:43.359

is 16 to 18 degrees c uh most people's

eyes go out on stalks particularly my


0:43:43.359,0:43:47.760

clients who are

middle eastern because 16 3c is like


0:43:47.760,0:43:51.280

winter woolies so you and i that's a

long


0:43:51.280,0:43:55.839

summer's day right


0:43:56.480,0:44:00.160

um and the way that i explain that is

layers on the body


0:44:00.160,0:44:03.520

but a cool room i'm not talking about

exposed splash and


0:44:03.520,0:44:07.359

and 16 degrees but what i am saying is

that cool rooms


0:44:07.359,0:44:11.839

are again going back to our car dna and

our ancestral sort of


0:44:11.839,0:44:16.000

uh cells that's what we had the sun set

and it went cold


0:44:16.000,0:44:20.240

so we're used to sleeping in cold we

need cold as a trigger to body to


0:44:20.240,0:44:24.160

a reduction in body temperatures i

should say to trigger us


0:44:24.160,0:44:27.359

to go from wakefulness to sleepiness so

cool room


0:44:27.359,0:44:32.480

dark room routine before bed

fundamentally you cannot underestimate


0:44:32.480,0:44:36.560

the importance of those

then in terms of feedings depending on


0:44:36.560,0:44:42.480

the age of your child

feedings will either be


0:44:42.480,0:44:49.280

timed during the night or not necessary

so from the age of six months old or


0:44:49.280,0:44:53.200

six and a half kilograms roughly six and

a half


0:44:53.200,0:44:56.400

your child is developmentally mature

enough to sleep through the night so


0:44:56.400,0:44:59.119

i've got three months old that sleeps

through the night if i sit through


0:44:59.119,0:45:02.400

i do mean 10 to 11 now 10 to 12 hours

sorry


0:45:02.400,0:45:08.319

i've got four months old five months old

and then from six months old genuinely


0:45:08.319,0:45:13.359

they should be going to bed

um let's say seven pm


0:45:13.359,0:45:16.560

and waking up at seven a.m and no waking

in between


0:45:16.560,0:45:23.119

to get the sleep that their body needs

okay and when when some parents think oh


0:45:23.119,0:45:25.119

but my

my eight-month-old is still feeding


0:45:25.119,0:45:30.240

three times and i have a child

um who's feeding four times a night 18


0:45:30.240,0:45:35.359

months the point is is not

to misunderstand the indication that


0:45:35.359,0:45:38.560

they may be hungry or that they're

they're you know waking up when they


0:45:38.560,0:45:43.760

they're drinking well

they're taking in the calories that they


0:45:43.760,0:45:47.680

need in in

20 in 12 hours of course 24 hours is it


0:45:47.680,0:45:52.319

12 hours that they're awake

during the day if anyone can hear my son


0:45:52.319,0:45:55.599

in the background

um the colors that they're taking that


0:45:55.599,0:45:58.960

they should be taking in the 12 hours of

weight but they're taking in over 24


0:45:58.960,0:46:02.480

hours so they're not taking

in enough during the daylight hours


0:46:02.480,0:46:06.240

basically

when they stop taking in their calories


0:46:06.240,0:46:10.000

overnight they will increase their

daytime calories so this solid intake


0:46:10.000,0:46:16.640

will be more enthusiastic their milk

will be drunk more quickly um and


0:46:16.640,0:46:21.200

um a well-rested child will always be

more enthusiastic about consuming


0:46:21.200,0:46:26.079

calories than a tired child

so when you have children that um on for


0:46:26.079,0:46:30.000

a couple of seconds and

off again especially breastfed babies or


0:46:30.000,0:46:34.400

don't finish their meals

those are babies that are lacking in


0:46:34.400,0:46:38.319

enthusiasm for

um eating either because they're tired


0:46:38.319,0:46:40.640

or

because as well as being tired they get


0:46:40.640,0:46:44.160

calories every night when they're

developmentally mature enough not to


0:46:44.160,0:46:48.880

sure and i think um just one thing to

point out you mentioned


0:46:48.880,0:46:52.960

that when they sleep you mean they sleep

from when they go to bed to when they


0:46:52.960,0:46:56.400

wake up and i think the thing that i

found really challenging early on in


0:46:56.400,0:46:59.119

pregnancy was

when you do talk to other parents or


0:46:59.119,0:47:03.839

mothers about sleeping through the night

uh people have different definitions of


0:47:03.839,0:47:06.400

what sleeping through the night means so

to me


0:47:06.400,0:47:10.079

sleeping through the night men she goes

to bed and wakes up in the morning so


0:47:10.079,0:47:12.480

she sleeps

all the way through without disturbing


0:47:12.480,0:47:16.319

my sleep but to other people that's not

necessarily


0:47:16.319,0:47:20.400

what that means and i think if you're a

young like if you're a mum with a young


0:47:20.400,0:47:22.720

child

and you've had these conversations


0:47:22.720,0:47:25.839

really do bear in mind

that you may not have the same


0:47:25.839,0:47:28.319

definition of what sleeping through the

night means


0:47:28.319,0:47:32.960

chris i say exactly and this is this is

classic one with quite a lot of people


0:47:32.960,0:47:37.200

misdefine miss define quiet same with

sleeping through the night so


0:47:37.200,0:47:41.760

what i would describe to sleeping

through the night is


0:47:41.760,0:47:45.280

and it will vary a little bit from a

within the age range but


0:47:45.280,0:47:50.960

as you say when they go to bed um

the next time they wake up is morning as


0:47:50.960,0:47:55.920

in they leave their bedroom

and they will in inevitably


0:47:55.920,0:48:00.480

like we all do wake up or have some

wakefulness periods throughout the night


0:48:00.480,0:48:03.599

but you won't know about it because they

are


0:48:03.599,0:48:07.200

able to put themselves back to sleep

just like me when i wake up in the night


0:48:07.200,0:48:09.520

i'm not tapping my husband on the

shoulder saying can you prank me back to


0:48:09.520,0:48:12.319

sleep

it is absolutely my ownership of my


0:48:12.319,0:48:15.680

sleep

sometimes i will wake up turn over and


0:48:15.680,0:48:18.400

go straight back to sleep

sometimes i will wake up get a glass of


0:48:18.400,0:48:22.000

water go back to see sometimes i'll wake

up maybe go to the bathroom


0:48:22.000,0:48:25.119

okay if we wake up and it lasts longer

than three minutes


0:48:25.119,0:48:28.720

we we have the ability to remember it

the next day if it's less than three


0:48:28.720,0:48:30.880

minutes

we don't remember it the next day so


0:48:30.880,0:48:34.079

when you wake up in the night

uh sorry when you sleep through the


0:48:34.079,0:48:36.480

night inevitably you've woken up a few

times


0:48:36.480,0:48:41.200

but you haven't been awake for long

enough that it's disrupted your sleep


0:48:41.200,0:48:44.800

and it's the same for babies so in other

words they may still


0:48:44.800,0:48:50.880

have wakeful periods um but

they are so firstly able to put


0:48:50.880,0:48:53.440

themselves back to sleep but secondly

brief


0:48:53.440,0:48:56.880

that the parent sleep is not disrupted

and


0:48:56.880,0:48:59.920

you mentioned the the blackout blinds

and that made


0:48:59.920,0:49:03.839

a big difference to us when we introduce

the blackout blind we actually now


0:49:03.839,0:49:08.640

travel with a blackout blind

because it has such a big impact on her


0:49:08.640,0:49:10.480

sleep

especially when you're in a different


0:49:10.480,0:49:17.839

environment as well so it's like a

an addition to um


0:49:21.040,0:49:24.480

i don't know the answer to this but

people always say


0:49:24.480,0:49:31.119

aren't they afraid of the dark yeah

uh yes when they're about


0:49:31.119,0:49:35.680

four years old that can happen um you

can't be afraid of the dark


0:49:35.680,0:49:40.160

until you know what fear is uh you can't

know fear unless you know


0:49:40.160,0:49:44.480

on balance the difference between being

fearful


0:49:44.480,0:49:47.599

or having something to be afraid of and

not


0:49:47.599,0:49:52.079

so you have to be cognitively aware

enough of


0:49:52.079,0:49:57.119

those elements um the other thing is is

that


0:49:57.119,0:50:04.800

we have evolved as a species um

for more years without artificial light


0:50:04.800,0:50:08.880

than with artificial light so we've only

had artificial light or light that we


0:50:08.880,0:50:11.200

can control in terms of turning it on

and off


0:50:11.200,0:50:15.440

for about 300 years but we've been in a

species for thousands and thousands and


0:50:15.440,0:50:19.920

thousands of years

and so our predominant um


0:50:19.920,0:50:26.240

preferences are those previous

sort of experiences that we develop as


0:50:26.240,0:50:32.400

as a race as a as a

mammal so if you think about it we used


0:50:32.400,0:50:36.480

to go to bed when sunset and got up when

sun rose okay and depending on where you


0:50:36.480,0:50:39.520

live in the world will depend on how

that affects you and obviously


0:50:39.520,0:50:42.960

um it depends on the time of year to

some extent as well


0:50:42.960,0:50:47.040

well little babies are very tuned into

that which means that they are perfectly


0:50:47.040,0:50:51.440

happy to sleep and pitch black

because that's what we've done you know


0:50:51.440,0:50:55.680

quite literally for centuries

and likewise very tuned into sunrise and


0:50:55.680,0:50:59.520

sunset as their

triggers to be asleep and awake so if


0:50:59.520,0:51:02.800

your child falls asleep at 10 p.m

but you live in a country where the sun


0:51:02.800,0:51:06.880

sets at 6 00 p.m believe me when i say

that's four hours that they are


0:51:06.880,0:51:11.040

should be asleep when they're awake and

it's not what their body


0:51:11.040,0:51:17.920

would prefer um because

and and um aligned to that when they


0:51:17.920,0:51:20.640

start waking up at six o'clock in the

morning believe me when i say that's


0:51:20.640,0:51:23.040

what their body prefers because the sun

is rising


0:51:23.040,0:51:27.280

now if you can black out the room so

entirely


0:51:27.280,0:51:31.040

that it's pitch black that they don't

they can't tell


0:51:31.040,0:51:35.119

daytime so when you know when you go to

a hotel that's the best blackout


0:51:35.119,0:51:38.559

curtains ever

those types of black eye curtains are


0:51:38.559,0:51:43.839

the only ones to believe in

as a as a um


0:51:43.839,0:51:47.520

guarantee that there's no light coming

in i i sent


0:51:47.520,0:51:50.720

i sent a message to a client not that

long ago and i said


0:51:50.720,0:51:54.319

is the room dart for naps and she said

yeah yeah we've got blackout blinds then


0:51:54.319,0:51:56.480

she went into the room and she sent me a

photograph she's like


0:51:56.480,0:52:00.079

yeah not so much and it was just cracks

everywhere it just was so


0:52:00.079,0:52:03.680

funny that she was so confident and then

actually


0:52:03.680,0:52:09.680

checked yeah ah okay yeah no there isn't

it's not black um because children


0:52:09.680,0:52:12.400

because you and i can fall asleep in

daylight because we know that we want to


0:52:12.400,0:52:16.839

be asleep but because they are so

tuned into daylight and so young and so


0:52:16.839,0:52:20.319

unaware

that that would be disruptive enough you


0:52:20.319,0:52:24.559

know it can be quite

it can often be a small thing that can


0:52:24.559,0:52:26.800

be a

big deal so going back to something you


0:52:26.800,0:52:31.839

said about breastfeeding okay

um i don't ever ask parents to wean or


0:52:31.839,0:52:35.040

mums to wean it's not

for me to decide when they should stop


0:52:35.040,0:52:38.079

feeding but what i am

saying to parents is if your child has


0:52:38.079,0:52:41.359

fallen asleep through that

we need to move that so like you say it


0:52:41.359,0:52:46.800

would be at a different time

in their bedtime routine usually prior


0:52:46.800,0:52:48.960

to the bath so then there's a big long

gap


0:52:48.960,0:52:55.119

between firstly when they were fed

um and sleep but also other things going


0:52:55.119,0:52:59.920

on to separate out

a feeding to sleep association again it


0:52:59.920,0:53:04.000

would depend on the age

um usually that's appropriate beyond


0:53:04.000,0:53:09.040

three months

um and and it's appropriate beyond three


0:53:09.040,0:53:11.520

months

and older when the child as i say is


0:53:11.520,0:53:14.960

developmentally mature enough to sleep

through the night i'm not asking parents


0:53:14.960,0:53:17.280

to

stop night feeds when the baby isn't


0:53:17.280,0:53:20.319

ready enough from a size or age point of

view


0:53:20.319,0:53:26.000

obviously that's not appropriate but um

babies can fall asleep independently at


0:53:26.000,0:53:30.000

night have feedings overnight and still

fall back to sleep independently


0:53:30.000,0:53:34.880

doesn't stop um it doesn't mean to say

that they can can't learn even if


0:53:34.880,0:53:38.880

they're babies that are being

um fed through the night so um those are


0:53:38.880,0:53:43.200

not

mutually i mean yeah that's really


0:53:43.200,0:53:46.960

interesting and

i've got so many more questions to ask


0:53:46.960,0:53:51.119

but i know that we'll just

keep talking and talking and talking so


0:53:51.119,0:53:55.280

i think

um yeah i've got some really you've


0:53:55.280,0:53:58.720

given us some really good insight and

i'm sure the listeners will take away


0:53:58.720,0:54:02.720

um a lot of information from what we've

talked about but if they do want more


0:54:02.720,0:54:05.520

information i

know you share a lot of blog posts on


0:54:05.520,0:54:08.480

your website as well which are really

informative


0:54:08.480,0:54:12.720

um so it'd be i mean i'll share um all

your details in the show notes but


0:54:12.720,0:54:15.680

where's the best place to contact you

and get in touch with you


0:54:15.680,0:54:19.440

yeah so my website is um sweet dreams

dot


0:54:19.440,0:54:26.160

consulting um i have a facebook page

which is um sweet dreams baby sleep


0:54:26.160,0:54:29.680

and either of those have my email

address and


0:54:29.680,0:54:35.040

um phone number listed um or obviously

you can message me through that


0:54:35.040,0:54:39.599

if anyone wants to reach out to me

letting me know that they came via


0:54:39.599,0:54:44.240

your write this podcast your app that

kind of thing i'm very happy to offer 10


0:54:44.240,0:54:48.240

discount on any services that um they

choose to hire me for if that


0:54:48.240,0:54:52.960

that's appropriate for that family um

but what i always say to people is


0:54:52.960,0:54:56.400

you know i always offer first initial

free of charge phone call to


0:54:56.400,0:55:02.160

help um understand what's going on

and what the objective of the parents


0:55:02.160,0:55:04.720

are to make sure it's

age appropriate and something i can


0:55:04.720,0:55:09.680

actually help with but also for

the parents to get a sense of me and how


0:55:09.680,0:55:12.640

i work

and if i feel like the right fit for


0:55:12.640,0:55:15.680

them

so i really want to get the point across


0:55:15.680,0:55:19.119

that you may not

feel that i am the right person for you


0:55:19.119,0:55:21.839

and that's totally fine it's quite a

personality


0:55:21.839,0:55:28.079

related service in that

i want families to know that i'm um


0:55:28.079,0:55:32.000

you know i'm in their corner um but they

want they obviously want to believe that


0:55:32.000,0:55:34.319

that

i am the right person for them so the


0:55:34.319,0:55:39.280

free of charge phone call can often mean

that i can just give a few tips if the


0:55:39.280,0:55:45.520

if the situation is not

so severe or so um


0:55:45.520,0:55:48.559

so challenging they just want a few kind

of ideas


0:55:48.559,0:55:52.000

then i'm very happy to have a free

charge call um to just


0:55:52.000,0:55:55.280

put them in the right direction and if

that's enough to get them off


0:55:55.280,0:55:58.960

on the right track to resolving their

child sleep like needing to pay for that


0:55:58.960,0:56:04.000

service that's perfectly fine by me

um i'd love to be able to help people


0:56:04.000,0:56:10.000

however i can um so you know don't

don't hesitate um listeners if you do


0:56:10.000,0:56:13.599

want some

help whether it's um something that you


0:56:13.599,0:56:15.839

want to

you know pay for in terms of you know


0:56:15.839,0:56:20.319

you need extra support or perhaps just

one or two pointers to get you off on


0:56:20.319,0:56:23.040

the right track

that's amazing and thank you so much


0:56:23.040,0:56:27.680

that's so kind of you to offer the 10

off um i will definitely add all your


0:56:27.680,0:56:32.079

details into the show notes so

um a place where it's easy for the


0:56:32.079,0:56:35.599

listeners to find you

and i just want to thank you again and i


0:56:35.599,0:56:37.920

hope that we can do this again at some

point maybe


0:56:37.920,0:56:41.440

talk a bit more in detail about some of

the other things like because i know


0:56:41.440,0:56:44.799

we've

only sort of touched the surface yeah i


0:56:44.799,0:56:48.480

mean it

it is a big big subject obviously we are


0:56:48.480,0:56:52.400

um

you know we are talking about as i said


0:56:52.400,0:56:58.079

earlier a fundamental human

need and um as as a race we don't


0:56:58.079,0:57:02.960

actually understand sleep that much

you know we are quite um uncertain about


0:57:02.960,0:57:05.359

the elements of sleep that we definitely

go


0:57:05.359,0:57:09.200

through and that we definitely need and

that we um


0:57:09.200,0:57:13.680

don't respond well to if we don't get

but we are we struggle to understand or


0:57:13.680,0:57:16.960

or to

research sleep in the way that um gives


0:57:16.960,0:57:20.160

us a full understanding of it so it is a

big topic um


0:57:20.160,0:57:24.000

and yeah i would be happy to come back

on and and um


0:57:24.000,0:57:27.040

for more help and insight i'm always

learning i'm


0:57:27.040,0:57:30.400

reading books and listening to audio

books about sleep pretty much


0:57:30.400,0:57:34.480

uh daily so i'm always learning and

therefore i can i've always got more to


0:57:34.480,0:57:37.200

share so

if the time is right for you in the


0:57:37.200,0:57:40.480

future then i'd be happy to

that's amazing thank you so much again


0:57:40.480,0:57:45.280

claudine my pleasure